And speaking from experience...each of my kids have a wii and I have an Xbox 360. They love their Wii...whenever I'm playing my Xbox. Because that means that they can't play my Xbox. Whenever we have friends over, we usually break out Tiger Woods in the wii or the wii fit board & snow board, but with the exception of the youngest (8 years old) the wiis get dusty real quick. Wii sports is fun, but when you can hit a 500+ foot home run by flicking your wrist & not even swinging, then you know it's a gimmick setup, not a real gaming machine.

I think where the Wii shines is in group play. Whenever I have people over, no matter the age makeup, the Wii is on the whole time. Is the Wii the best single player system? No. Best multiplayer? I've no problem saying yes.

Again, I disagree. Sony's Electronic Entertainment branch has lost money for about two years now, and I think Microsofts game division has only post two quarters in the black (each of which was a Halo release). Nintendo is really the only one of the three that makes money (a lot of it, at that) in the actual gaming industry. Microsoft is being hammered by lackluster Vista sales and increase global acceptance of Linux distros and opensource office applications. Sony, while competitive in other home electronics, is only going to be able to support a huge loss in its gaming division for so long.

Nintendo just does one thing, and does it really well. It's done nothing but games (besides buying most of the Seattle Mariners) for the last 25 years.

So I still stand by it. I think Nintendo will outlive MS and Sony.

I think Sony is more likely to die than Microsoft if anyone goes under. Unless the PS3's potential gets unlocked somehow.

I think it was more a thought of Nintendo that games had gotten too complex. Nintendo started with a dpad and two buttons. Check out the 360 controller. Lots of people can't just pick up and play Gears of War 2, especially not like they could Donkey Kong or Mario Brothers. They just brought that back, the accessibility.

Anyway, go video games! The more the better! Woo!

Also, Dante, are you posting a feud? I heard you had the first post planned out. You seem to respond here, but not in the OOC forum

It's weird that you characterise going for the casual crowd as some sort of pandering exercise, Magnus. As if they couldn't hack it with the real gamers so instead tried to find a new market. Do you not think that Nintendo creating a whole new gaming demographic is pretty much the smartest thing any video game developer has ever done? I think when you're part of a subculture it looks bigger than it really is - "serious gamers" don't account for as much of the population as you might think, but "casual gamers" is pretty much everyone in the Western world (including me).

I'll say what I said to you on msn when we were talking about this: my mother played Wii Sports this Christmas and owns a DS. Did yours crack out the XBox and play any Gears of War? The casual gamer market is much more viable long term than the serious gamer market too, because my mother and those like her will happily use their DSes forever, and never crave a new console with a new killer app - they just want to have fun, and don't care about the advances in technology. And, while they might be happy with whatever game they have forever, their serious gamer kids will keep buying them new games every birthday because it's an easy present to get now. I've bought, like, two DS games already as gifts for her - I think it's the first time I've ever bought a video game as a present for anyone, and I never thought it would be for my mother. That's market strategy right there.

There is a reason I call cornering the casual crowd "Pandering", Thommy. I have spent enough time in retail and now in a service profession to know exactly how the common man works. The common man follows whims to a great extent, if everyone else builds a say new kitchen, the common man does so too. If everyone thinks that a laptop is the way to go, common man follows.

Calling what Ninteno do pandering isn't an insult to Nintendo as for the time being they have a lucrative market for sure. In insult if for the fickle and follow the leader attitude of the common man. Once the Wii has worn out it's welcome, very few of the casual gamers will look back at the hobby. What I mean is that in order to remain viable as a gaming company Nintendo had to in a way sell themselves to a audience that will not provide them with long lasting revenue, as soon as they run out of ideas for new games for their controllers intrest will fade. So to me I complain because Nintendo, the company that has become a word for "gaming" has taken a road that frankly may end up costing them more revenue in the future then they are making now.

I think the proof is in looking at the other games for the Wii, apart from Wii FIT and Wii Sports and the usual crowd of Mario Kart and Smash Bros, I really don't hear much about Wii games. I know Resident Evil 4 was good on the Wii, but hell that game was greast on the Gamecube, PS2 and the PC too. MArio Galaxy was praised but seems to have falled off the world. Zelda: Twilight princess IS a great game as I own it on my Gamecube, but its hype has died down too.

But as I said, Wii sports was fun as hell, I don't deny that at all.

But you're talking about the demographic like it's divided right down the middle - as if serious gamers account for 3 billion people... The market for the Wii and the DS isn't just larger than the market for the PS3 and XBox 360: it's magnitudes larger. If everyone stops buying Nintendo consoles tomorrow, they'll still probably still end up winning this generation's console war.

You're talking about the normal, non-gaming public as if they're some kind of crazy niche that Nintendo are trying to reach out too, to the detriment of their existing customers. Believe me, Sony and Microsoft are kicking themselves for not realising that they could sell computer games to real people, instead of just young males (a demographic even more fleeting and capricious than the one you describe, Magnus). After all, why do you think the rival consoles are bringing out all these party games at the moment? They've seen where the money is.

The future of the gaming industry does not lie in constantly trying to chase a single category of customer, creating more complex, more graphically intensive, more niche games in order to please people you've already won over, but in expanding the scope of the industry and making stuff that non-gamers can actually enjoy.

It's the difference between art-house cinema and Hollywood. No one would deny the artistic merit of the former, but it's the latter that actually keeps the movie industry afloat and, every now and then, Hollywood's megabucks get pumped into a piece of cinema that's worthwhile. Video gaming is still a very young industry, and it's just discovering now that endlessly pursuing the exact same market with every release is not a viable strategy for the future. Nintendo have thought outside the box, and that's why the Wii is crushing everything else right now and will continue to do so, because you don't have to make a Wii 360 or a Wii2/3 to keep the customers happy - the hardware is way below the current standard, and yet it's selling by the truckload. What does that tell you?

Thommy, you really DO NOT want to know what that tells me about the general public.

I guess I would like to call this less of an issue and more of a concern. Games like Zelda, Mario and Metroid have been a HUGE part of my upbrining as a gamer. The mere risk of these franchises being damaged or even, horrible thought...killed due to Nintendo focusing on the casual crowd disgusts me.

For me a few rounds of happy-sappy gaming isn't what I want from a console, I want more. I like you want stories that I can care about, action that keeps me coming back and a challenge to keep me on the dge of my seat, games like Wii Sports doesn't offer that. WHat I worry about is that the runaway success of the Wii will result in every company focusing on a crowd that isn't actually interested in gaming, they want to have a fun, quick cheap laugh and then move on.

To be honest, my opinion of the general public that make up the bulk of the casual gamers is extremely low. the reason for this isn't important at all. I just dislike anything custom made to be as fluffy and inoffensive to Joe Average as possible. In my book, the Wii is just that, fluffy and inoffensive.

Of course, I've spent most of my life since the days of the Commodore 64 as a member of the hardcore gaming community so of course I dislike things that risk taking what I love away from me. In many way games are an artform, they can craft stories and evoke fantasies and wishes. They can immerse you in a world that surrounds you.

Casual games doesn't even try to do this.

Again as I said before, Nintenod is doing the right thing economically by making the Wii the casual console, the problem is that I doubt the casual crowd will remain loyal and bring in future revenue for Nintendo.

And the gaming world does not need another fall from grace like Sega's. Although playing Mario on my 360 would be fun

As always of course, this is just my own opinion.

...and yes I am aware that my opinion is elitist. That's the entire point of it. I try to defend the part of the gaming world that I care about.

You know that when I talk about this casual gamer demographic I count myself in that group, right? It's a games console: there is only one criterion that I use to decide if a game is good or not.

Is this fun?

Y/N

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, the same as judging a movie on whether it's entertaining or not. I'm not saying that I can't acknowledge the existence of other facets of a video game (in the same way that I'm aware of the existence of good camera work and sound mixing in a movie, and understand that they contribute to the overall experience in ways I don't fully comprehend), but the things you mention will always be something for the niche crowd as far as I'm concerned. They're for nerds. Sorry. Nerds judge a video game based on how immersive its story is, not normal people - if I want an immersive story, I'll read a book. I pick up a control pad (or Wiimote, in fact) to have fun, not engage in a life-changing experience.

Different people want different things from their gaming, of course, and I'm certain there will always be developers pushing the boundaries of video-games-as-artform just as, despite the success of Hollywood, there are still art films being made and, in fact, the growth of the film industry has made their continued existence possible. To put it another way, the runaway success of the Wii (which has not just outsold the other consoles, but done way, way better in real terms than any console has any right to) has made Nintendo money. That's money that will go back into series like Zelda and Metroid, because the guys making the games are still artists who want to do the best job they can. Now they just have a bigger pot of cash to work with, thanks to Wii Sports and Wii Fit.

I hate this concept that it's either/or. I guess it's just a geek thing - like when fans of an obscure music genre see it grow popular and then be appropriated by people who they characterise as fair-weather fans, keying into the latest trend. Nintendo making money and selling consoles to people who never even picked up a controller before this Christmas can't possibly be a bad thing for the industry, can it? It's more money, if nothing else, and the "real games" (which, for an outsider, is such a crazy concept, btw) are still selling to you guys, so what's the problem?

Maybe the casual crowd will walk away eventually - so what? They sold a lot of consoles while they (we) were around, and made a ton of money. What do you expect companies to do with their time?

The problem with the "well they are making money now, aren't they?!" idea is just that, the casual games are making money. As I see it most large companies have little artistic vision. Their employees most likely have the vision but the people with the fingers on the button see one thing: The sum of money they make.

As other companies see the runaway success of the Wii casual games they will no doubt try to follow it. They will devote money towards the "right-now" gamers. As in every scenario, money is a scarse resource this will mean that less will be spent on the people who brought the gaming companies to the game in the first place. I guess the entire thing can be boiled down to alienation of the core customers.

As I said the WWE did this during both the Rock 'n' wrestling days and the attitude era, they focused on the casual fans and ignored their core audience. The core audience is usually exteremly loyal unless they get treated like shit. My point is that while Nintendo did the right thing economically in focusing the Wii on the causal crowd, they are at risk of trading away their future for a little more cash in the present.

I think gaming should be for everyone, not just for us nerds and not just for Grandma, but for everyone. There should be games for the guy or gal who pics up a wiimote and plays Wiisports and for the guys and girls who play GTA IV. But focusing on one end of the spectrum as Nintendo does is very risky as they may end up harming their loyal fans.

Thommy, we will never agree on this as our POVs are different...but I still know that you're wrong.

Ok, so just kidding about the last bit

I don't think she's playing GTA4, but does look like she's having fun. Just sayin.

Also jealous that Wrestling is better on consoles I don't own, and can't buy Street Fighter 4

My viewpoint on the Wii/360/PS3 console wars is this: While there is a few games for the Wii I would really like, most of them are heavily competitive games(For me, anyway): Pokemon, Smash Bros, and the like. However, I tend to be very competitive in games (Although I'll play casually now and then), but I don't expect Nintendo to shift viewpoints soon, because (IMO) they are making money off of it. Several of their first party games (Pokemon Platinum, SSBB, Mario Galaxy) have sold millions of copies. I personally am a hardcore gamer, but the majority is where the money lies, and the majority of gamers, at least so far as I know, are not hardcore competitors. There's nothing wrong with casual gamers or appealing to them, but it seems that in the process, Nintendo neglects the hardcore audience. This is only MHO, however.

(Please note, I have not played any Wii games and this is only from what I know about the Wii from other sources)

So I think I'm gonna sell/trade/goozex my copy of Smackdown. I lost interest when I was playing the tag team story and had to spear Edge twice and just couldn't control it. I guess if I want it back I could always request it.